Tulpa.info - metaphysics

see except that i live on a college campus

3:29 PM

so whatever info they could get would be out of date

I'm going to continue this discussion in #general-chat (edited)

People will find a way to hurt you if they're determined enough

3:30 PM

Okay reg

So like when are we going to talk about actual magic

4:26 PM

Just conjure some shit up out of thin air already

4:30 PM

You know why prayer works? Magic

4:31 PM

I mean that is after all what they're doing when they pray. Performing an incantation.

prayer works?

If you do it correctly, yes

1

4:52 PM

The harder the task the stronger a spell you need

4:54 PM

Unfortunately spells/prayers for medical conditions pretty much never work (edited)

4:54 PM

And that's the standard candle that a lot of the studies done on it have used

What kind of magic spells can I really cast, then?

None, science has proven that magic isn't real. The most you can do is slight of hand trickery. Actually, belief is very powerful and words, chanting, incantation can be an excellent catalyst for real change, at least within your own psyche. Through meditation and the power of imagination even guides/Angels/daemins could be summoned and appear before you within your mind's eye. But Hollywood style popularized magic: tangible summoning, fire ball casting, illusions, and glamour these are things that have been made up to sell tickets.

guides, Angels, daemins?

12:20 PM

this is #metaphysics I don't know why you're spoilering that

12:20 PM

I guess my question is where those three things come from

12:22 PM

Like, humans evolved over millions of years on Earth in tandem with thousands of other species- we don't know the exact mechanism of how life started, probably never will know what was exactly the case with life on Earth even if we end up being able to create basic cells within test tubes

12:23 PM

And the deal with God, at least the Abrahamic God, is ex nihilo- i.e. out of nothing, that God exists kinda on a whole nother level from our time perception, that God existed before/outside of time which isn't even fully understandable to humanity, it's mostly something you're just supposed to have faith/believe in

12:24 PM

when I hear people talk about kinda vaguely spiritual things that aren't really part of any existing and established spiritual or religious practice I'm just like... where, who, what, why?

12:28 PM

like most folk spirits and things in folk religion have some sort of explanation, like, oh the god whoever came down and fucked some lady and she gave birth to twenty fox spirits who impersonate hot women and if anyone fucks them foxes eat all their chickens, or like in Christianity I guess you could say it's just a book, but people get their ideas about angels from the Bible or apocrypha

12:32 PM

so what are guides, Angels, and daemins, @Lusovius ? Where did they come from? Why does summoning them with meditation and imagination work?

it was spoilerized because it directly contradicted the statement I made prior to it

No no you misunderstand entirely. You're getting hung up on terms when I was merely attempting to nod to that which could be considered suchness from all practices and religion. Hence the reason for the back slash between the terms. If I were alluding to each one specifically I would have used commas as you did. The point being that human imagination is capable of conjuring up anything, with enough intent and concentration. Many religions and spiritual practices the world over have had teachers or guides or whatever they get called in that practice. And while that religion may not have a summoning ritual, there's nothing stopping a human with limitless imagination from summoning up whatever it is for their own learning.

So what makes that actually metaphysical and not just...imagination

Whats the difference? ~

4:33 PM

Just because it's created by the human mind doesn't mean it's not real!

When it's limited to the head of the imagine-r and it has no impact outside the imagine-r....it's safe to conclude that it is imaginary

^

So...?

imaginary things are only real within the confines of the brain and not greater consensus reality Your experience with a daemon is just an experience, and if it helps you that's great, but if the daemon told you to invest in BlockBuster because it's gonna get huge, "a daemon told me so" is 0% evidence because it's on par with any random thought pulled out of your ass And it especially isn't evidence that some astral plane exists, or that souls are real, or that any energy woowoo is real

^

And when did Luso (or anyone) say that astral planes/souls/energy woowoo are real, or to follow a daemon's business advice?

His whole argument kinda hinges around stuff like that being considered magical, as opposed to falling within science or explainable phenomena, from my bit of skimming

belief is very powerful and words, chanting, incantation can be an excellent catalyst for real change, at least within your own psyche

5:04 PM

I generally agree with that, but the point is that that doesn't work because you're really drawing in magical forces, but just... psychology...

5:04 PM

These meta mindframes tend to come with baggage, other beliefs

5:05 PM

Like when a family prays for a patient during surgery, and when they come out of surgery they praise God, not the surgeons

5:06 PM

any meditative practice is generally beneficial- buying into non-scientific woowoo paradigms about chakras, energy centers, souls, whathaveyou, astral planes, etc etc, is what I argue against

Cool. I just didnt see Luso mention that but whatevs

if something was an Angel, a real Angel, vs your imagination, wouldn't you take it more seriously?

Sure but who mentioned real angels? Luso said "through the power of meditation and imagination, angels/daemons could be summoned"

Again, he's acting like this is all separate from explainable phenomena

5:09 PM

Clearly denoting such acts as magic and so forth

I thought what he said was "science has proven that magic isnt real", but Ill take your word for it...

He even states that the spoilered bit is spoilered because of the contrast to that statement

5:16 PM

He's saying that science proves conjuring an elephant for all to see isn't real, but that this sort of limited-to-your-own-mind stuff still "counts"

If it helps, and motivates you to do things it's a good thing, but I'm of the opinion that most of these "prediction" tools, are mostly based on the concept of telling the participant things they already know or to reaffirm their own beliefs through little ticks the participant tells or generalizes predictions to a point it's relevant to a majority of people, so they're usually so benign they could be interpreted in different all types of ways. In the case of tarot cards, "two distinct different people, but so connected that they can appear as one" could mean so many things, for example: twins, lovers, friends, ... Its subjective and very easy to assign a personal meaning to them. I don't have a problem with using these tools for personal enjoyment, I do have a problem when people use it to trick people for money or personal gain.

Tarot cards seem to work because of confirmation bias

12:59 AM

Same with any form of future telling/astrology

1:00 AM

However I agree with what Burn said earlier, if you've got the mentality that your tulpa is going to develop through hard work, then it's probably gonna happen, which is a good thing

1:01 AM

Deep down everyone wants some sort of purpose or reassurance and that's my guess on why these things have endured for so long, and especially why they're gaining popularity again over the last few years/decade

Nah man! Of course not, and I don't say it in a condescendig way, but everyone has their beliefs and their own reasons to believe. Imagine how we'd sound if we went around explaining to everyone the concept of tulpas. That'd sound dumb

4:24 AM

I probably get a little too aggresive with this stuff bc of family issues related to belief in astrology (and lack thereof)

4:26 AM

But I respect your opinion, and I recognise that even if I think my logic makes sense, it may not mean anything. We don't really know what's going on in this universe

I think we should appreciate tarot not for the cards, it for the ability of the reader to successfully bend the cards' meanings to fit a convincing and potentially fitting story and prediction for the person being read. That's one hell of a cold read and it takes a lot of skill to connect things on the fly like that.

True!

Otherwise, especially with less experienced readers, we are more than likely the ones pieceing together things and making connections.

4:29 AM

Either way, a great psychological topic to take a look at.

Been meaning to reply to this @JGC: https://i.ibb.co/JRfLBxv/Screen-Shot-2020-11-06-at-8-31-25-PM.png I agree that a mouse doesn't really understand what it is to be. Of course, we can't really ever know for certain what it's like to be another animal (or person), but it looks like humans, a few other highly developed mammals, and birds, are the only organisms who are "conscious of being conscious" - maybe we could call it meta-conscious. I agree that meta-consciousness is highly emergent, but I think consciousness in its most absolutely simple form is probably "basal" in the animal and plant kingdoms, maybe even most of multicellular life: awareness. Processing information about the spacetime world as obtained by our senses, translating it into an experience. I don't insist on plants or animals having an experience, though. We can't know - for all we know, all other humans may be psychological zombies. All we know is that "I am." For what it's worth, I don't really think it matters whether consciousness is "basal" in an evolutionary sense. The "important"/relevant part is that consciousness is basal in the context of our own life experience. We have a life experience because we're conscious - that's what I mean by the word conscious: we experience. The "recognition" that spiritual teachings describe as being available is that nothing exists (within our experience!) except this present moment we're experiencing. I agree that ants don't get depressed. (Some individual apes, chimps, birds may - who knows?) But you don't have to "retard yourself down to that level". It's a certain type of self-referential thoughts that is "problematic" (as far as our contentness in life goes) which can dissolve as a result of "meta-consciousness". The end of these type of thoughts is not necessary for normal, efficient every-day human functioning (but probably was before the age of modern civilization, which is why it evolved in the first place).

5:01 AM

Lastly, regarding your last line, the teaching (or Roger) don't give any prescription of "you should/shouldn't do this/that." The organism will move according to its preferences, resulting from its design and conditioning. But giving a description of "what's available" has been a tried-and-true way for thousands of years (next to psychedelics, meditation, etc) to recondition the way we function such that unhappiness/"unfulfilledness" dissolves.

5:03 AM

A combined recognition that we're not a separate, independent doer, and a "full" recognition of the fact that life/reality as we know it is a present-moment experience that's being output by an organism

5:03 AM

WIth a resulting dissolution of guilt/shame, blame/hatred, pride/arrogance, worry/anxiety and expectation/resistance

Tagging @Abvieon {Alex} too

@Abvieon {Alex}

I've been listening to a lot of Buddhist teachings on meditation and consciousness, and I'm seeing where they're coming from on there being a sort of base level consciousness. Consciousness is not the same as higher level thinking, self-awareness, etc. Thoughts, perceptions, feelings arise within consciousness. You can remove all those thoughts, etc (ex, by clearing your mind temporarily) and still be conscious. All the things that arise in consciousness are transient, if you think "I like cats," the thought lasts as long as it takes to have the thought and then it's gone. The thought itself isn't the consciousness.

Yeah ❤️

It's a certain type of self-referential thoughts that is "problematic" (as far as our contentness in life goes) which can dissolve as a result of "meta-consciousness". The end of these type of thoughts is not necessary for normal, efficient every-day human functioning (but probably was before the age of modern civilization, which is why it evolved in the first place).

I fumbled that last sentence. The harmful thoughts (guilt, blame, pride, worry, expectation) are not necessary for normal, efficient day-to-day functioning, and hence it's not a problem if they end (edited)

How could expectation be a harmful thought though (lol), especially in tulpa creation process

9:31 AM

But I have the problem with such mindset, because someone could take it to extreme and then guess what happens

9:32 AM

The life would be boring without negative thoughts also (edited)

re delxis stuff about tarot and tulpa, they day I brought spice and tomoe out of dormancy my card of the day was the lovers

@m00nsp3ak3r Expectation in this context doesnt mean making plans, anticipating the future, etc. Expectation specifically refers to "life needs to turn out the way I imagine in the future, otherwise I cant be happy/complete/fulfilled", as well as the resistance that kicks in when life doesn't go that way

5:49 PM

Boredom is a form of expectation as well. "Life should be more exciting right now. I can only be happy if circumstance is pleasant rather than painful"

5:50 PM

The absence of guilt, blame, pride, worry and expectation doesn't mean boredom, or losing our passion for life. It just means inner peace regardless of circumstance

@Unfastened Belts So if, for example, my life turns out bad in general I should conserve this inner peace? If that's the case I still don't see how to accept something like this. Negative emotions like guilt, worry etc are designed to indicate us that something in our life is wrong and more importantly for us to take action. Not everyone is ubermench, if that abstract someone doesn't feel guit for maybe something he should apologize (example) then he most likely wouldn't. I see expectation as some kind of quality control. If one lives in the shithole, expectation of better life should make him miserable, when the psychological stress would cross that line of comfort zone, the one would be made to behave in specific way, i. e. to take action and make his life better. Without negative emotions it's really easy to be content with one's bad quality life and stay stagnant, so don't care about your possibilities of being a better person. Boredom as well, it stimulates one to DO SOMETHING ALREADY instead of wasting time (edited)

Yeah - that's how 99 % of humanity sees it (because they haven't experienced the absence of that psychological identity, which is deeply ingrained)

6:06 PM

Will reply later when I have time

this the occult channel?

Yes

why yes this is absolutely the occult channel

good

though be prepared for many of the server's members to carefully deconstruct your occult beliefs as just being confirmation bias

don't care

excellent! then post away

i used to be one of the 'enlightened' 19 year old computer lords they all are

2:14 AM

they have my sympathies, misguided and useless as their efforts are

ooo shots fired. Let's at least try to keep things civil

why yes, I did just show up

oh then welcome to this humble server

we would like to know, from other experienced tulpamancers, if you have the sense that your tulpamancy skills are enhancing the possibilities of your magical trance feeling and thinking (edited)

2:17 AM

like, I'm reading about the European occult tradition, and manifesting an entity from a more exalted plane through ritual

2:18 AM

seems like it could be perceptually experienced super vividly through the same mental powers cultivated by tulpamancy (edited)

2:18 AM

which is essentially a form of consciousness-magic anyway, whatever label you put on it (edited)

speaking as one who does not tulpa, I believe there are definite benefits to training your brain to parallel process through tulpamancy. One of those benefits is in the realm of meditation/trance.

What I would say prepares to get stones thrown at is that tulpamancy could very much feel like, and hence be "taught" by describing it as, manifesting an entity from a more exalted plane through ritual

2:21 AM

I hope that doesn't sound too rational :p

yeah but in most magick you have to have your ritual circle, secret god names, instruments, astrologically appropriate timing

2:21 AM

or any other features to supposedly 'mediate' a manifestation of something higher